Help me upgrade and upsize my wood stove!

[Ashful]

I'm starting to get this a bit, but still having a bit of a hard time wrapping my head around it. If the heater is more radiant, it can still heat objects that aren't in a direct path of the stove, correct?

Technically, no. But indirectly, yes. Radiant heating only transfers energy to objects in the direct line of sight to the stove. But those objects, in turn, re-radiate to others. The difference is that while a 600F stove can radiate enormous amounts of energy unto a 70F object in the room, raising it's temperature quite a bit, each successive re-radiation transfer is happening at much lower temperature deltas (eg. the initial object heated to 85F now trying to radiant unto the next 70F object.

Your room air also picks up a lot of heat from the stove (and all of those objects), via direct conduction. It is this warm air that is generally required to move heat to the upper floors, although direct ceiling/floor conduction helps, too.

The convective stove just short-cuts the process, putting 100F+ air right into the room, where it's quickly swept off to adjacent rooms and up the staircase to do it's job.

In my case, the convective vs. radiant thing became a big deal, but that was unique to my installation. My stoves are installed in large fireplaces (see avatar), which are on external walls. The majority of heat radiated into that stone work is just conducted thru then re-radiated outside. Going to a convective stove with a "cold" jacket around it dramatically cut down on this radiation (and thus my losses), keeping more of the heat in the house. Another on of those old house / unique situations.

BTW, "heat" is a unit of energy, not power.

 

[Woody Stover]

put a box fan on the floor in the entrance to the kitchen facing the stove on low and then medium, and then at the far opposite end of the kitchen facing the entrance and nothin'...

It's possible to disrupt the natural convection loop from the warm area to the cooler one, if the fan is blowing hard or there is a ceiling fan going in the stove room. A small fan on low seems to have the greatest effect. But yeah, all you can do is play with it and see what works best.

 

[KennyK]

It's possible to disrupt the natural convection loop from the warm area to the cooler one, if the fan is blowing hard or there is a ceiling fan going in the stove room. A small fan on low seems to have the greatest effect. But yeah, all you can do is play with it and see what works best.

One other thing I haven't mentioned is that I have been running the ceiling fan in the stove room in reverse so the air blows towards the ceiling. I can't remember where I heard that this was good to do, but it definitely makes the temperature go up a few degrees in the room when I turn it on, and I don't feel any breeze from the fan blowing on me. Today I decided to try and run it the other direction, blowing down as I would do in warm weather to cool the room, and it both created a breeze and I saw the temperature drop a bit compared to when I had it running in reverse. Any thoughts on this? So far, as things aren't getting too warm, I haven't been running my other ceiling fan in the room next to the stove room.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you have too many moving parts going for a valid test.

 

[Woody Stover]

I have been running the ceiling fan in the stove room in reverse so the air blows towards the ceiling. I can't remember where I heard that this was good to do, but it definitely makes the temperature go up a few degrees in the room when I turn it on, and I don't feel any breeze from the fan blowing on me. Today I decided to try and run it the other direction, blowing down as I would do in warm weather to cool the room, and it both created a breeze and I saw the temperature drop a bit compared to when I had it running in reverse. Any thoughts on this?

The ceiling fan is more of a help in a large room with outside walls and maybe a vaulted ceiling, where cool air is falling off the walls and a lot of hot air is pooling high up. I'm stumped as to why room temp would fall when blowing the warm air down in that room. Maybe pulling cooler air from the other rooms somehow..??

 

[KennyK]

Sounds like you have too many moving parts going for a valid test.

I saw where you were coming from, so I tried again last night cutting out the multiple factors. I turned off the ceiling fan and just used the one box fan in the doorway of the kitchen facing the stove. 50 minutes later no change in kitchen temp. I then moved the box fan to the far end of the kitchen facing the kitchen doorway to the dining/stove room. After about an hour I saw a one degree increase according to the thermometer (plus the outside temperature had dropped about 12 degrees). However, aside from this small temp increase, the kitchen felt more comfortable to me, the air felt warmer and the floor didn't seem as cold. I don't know if this was just in my mind, but that was my sense. I then realized the bathroom off the kitchen was chilly, so I put another small fan on the floor blowing on low out of that room into the kitchen. I didn't put a thermometer in there but after a little bit it definitely warmed up according to feel, and no change to kitchen or dining room temps. Finally, I realized that there seemed to be a bit of cold air coming in from all the floor registers from my forced air ducts. I closed those and covered them, but by that point I was just about ready for bed, so thus ended the "scientific" study for the night! Oh, and one other thing I noticed in all this yesterday - as I walked down the stairs from the second to first floors, there's a point where I could feel a warm air burst coming through the door of the stove room and seemingly moving it's way to the second floor. I felt this multiple times. There's a hot air duct at the bottom of the stairs, just outside of that door to the dining and living rooms, and I also feel this when the forced hot air is on (which it wasn't last night at this time), so I guess this is a point of air flow in the house, or perhaps this is the natural convection loop that @Woody Stover is refering to.

 

[moresnow]

Sounds like your getting somewhere with the fans. Like you are finding, I had the best luck placing the fan/fans at the farthest point from the stove. Running them on low pointed towards the stove room. It would take a few hours for the cold rooms to react favorably. It always worked. My current stove puts out such even, long term heat that I no longer use the fans.

 

[Woody Stover]

And as I may have mentioned, I think a smaller fan will be less likely to disrupt the convection loop by blowing the cool air too high and creating turbulence.

 

[KennyK]

Technically, no. But indirectly, yes. Radiant heating only transfers energy to objects in the direct line of sight to the stove. But those objects, in turn, re-radiate to others. The difference is that while a 600F stove can radiate enormous amounts of energy unto a 70F object in the room, raising it's temperature quite a bit, each successive re-radiation transfer is happening at much lower temperature deltas (eg. the initial object heated to 85F now trying to radiant unto the next 70F object.

Your room air also picks up a lot of heat from the stove (and all of those objects), via direct conduction. It is this warm air that is generally required to move heat to the upper floors, although direct ceiling/floor conduction helps, too.

The convective stove just short-cuts the process, putting 100F+ air right into the room, where it's quickly swept off to adjacent rooms and up the staircase to do it's job.

In my case, the convective vs. radiant thing became a big deal, but that was unique to my installation. My stoves are installed in large fireplaces (see avatar), which are on external walls. The majority of heat radiated into that stone work is just conducted thru then re-radiated outside. Going to a convective stove with a "cold" jacket around it dramatically cut down on this radiation (and thus my losses), keeping more of the heat in the house. Another on of those old house / unique situations.

BTW, "heat" is a unit of energy, not power.

Ok, I just read this a second time, and I think a light bulb just went on for me that I was having trouble understanding before (I "think," as I may not be right about this). This is the piece about the room air picking up a lot of heat from the stove (and other objects in direct site of the stove), via direct conduction. So, am I correct in my understanding that the air touching the stove (and other warm objects in the room) picks up heat via conduction by virtue of air that is touching the stove, much like the end a metal spoon would conduct heat from the other end submerged in boiling water? This air then moves around the house warming things up in other places. Correct? And, with a more conductive stove it is blowing hot air out, correct? So, if I'm correct about this, is there anything beyond a blower and perhaps some sort of jacket around a stove that collects hot air to be blown out, that makes one stove convective and another radiant? Is certain material inherently conductive in its nature and other material radiant? Is a soapstone stove or cast iron stove always more radiant while steel always more conductive? Would the Ideal Steel be pretty equally both as it's steel with a soapstone liner?

 

[Ashful]

Ok, I just read this a second time, and I think a light bulb just went on for me that I was having trouble understanding before (I "think," as I may not be right about this). This is the piece about the room air picking up a lot of heat from the stove (and other objects in direct site of the stove), via direct conduction. So, am I correct in my understanding that the air touching the stove (and other warm objects in the room) picks up heat via conduction by virtue of air that is touching the stove, much like the end a metal spoon would conduct heat from the other end submerged in boiling water? This air then moves around the house warming things up in other places. Correct? And, with a more conductive stove it is blowing hot air out, correct? So, if I'm correct about this, is there anything beyond a blower and perhaps some sort of jacket around a stove that collects hot air to be blown out, that makes one stove convective and another radiant? Is certain material inherently conductive in its nature and other material radiant? Is a soapstone stove or cast iron stove always more radiant while steel always more conductive? Would the Ideal Steel be pretty equally both as it's steel with a soapstone liner?

Ding! Ding! Ding! You’ve got it, now.

Q1: So, am I correct in my understanding that the air touching the stove (and other warm objects in the room) picks up heat via conduction by virtue of air that is touching the stove, much like the end a metal spoon would conduct heat from the other end submerged in boiling water?
A1: Basically, yes. The air picks up energy off the stove, convective air currents then move that warmed air to another part of the house, where the air then conducts that energy to other cooler objects. Convection and conduction work together, radiation does not require either.

Q2: This air then moves around the house warming things up in other places. Correct?
A2: Correct.

Q3: And, with a more conductive stove it is blowing hot air out, correct?
A3: You got it. It just short-cuts the same process that occurs eventually with a radiant stove, but at a higher air temperature.

Q4: So, if I'm correct about this, is there anything beyond a blower and perhaps some sort of jacket around a stove that collects hot air to be blown out, that makes one stove convective and another radiant?
A4: The jacket and blower are usually the biggest factor. They also sometimes add fins or other features on the hot surface of the firebox (think finned heat sink) to enhance the heat transfer from metal to air.

Q5: Is certain material inherently conductive in its nature and other material radiant?
A5: Yes, some materials radiate better or worse than others, this is measured as the material’s emissivity. However, put a blower on the stove, and you’ve just overwhelmed the much more minor differences in material emissivities. Sort of like worrying about the color of the paint, after someone spilled a can of it on your floor.

Q6: Is a soapstone stove or cast iron stove always more radiant while steel always more conductive? Would the Ideal Steel be pretty equally both as it's steel with a soapstone liner?
A6: Good questions. I am not sure of the emissivity numbers of each, but you could check. I was speaking to the design of each. Steel fireboxes are more often wrapped in a cast iron convective jacket, than traditional cast stove fireboxes or soapstone stoves.

 

[KennyK]

Ding! Ding! Ding! You’ve got it, now.

Q1: So, am I correct in my understanding that the air touching the stove (and other warm objects in the room) picks up heat via conduction by virtue of air that is touching the stove, much like the end a metal spoon would conduct heat from the other end submerged in boiling water?
A1: Basically, yes. The air picks up energy off the stove, convective air currents then move that warmed air to another part of the house, where the air then conducts that energy to other cooler objects. Convection and conduction work together, radiation does not require either.

Q2: This air then moves around the house warming things up in other places. Correct?
A2: Correct.

Q3: And, with a more conductive stove it is blowing hot air out, correct?
A3: You got it. It just short-cuts the same process that occurs eventually with a radiant stove, but at a higher air temperature.

Q4: So, if I'm correct about this, is there anything beyond a blower and perhaps some sort of jacket around a stove that collects hot air to be blown out, that makes one stove convective and another radiant?
A4: The jacket and blower are usually the biggest factor. They also sometimes add fins or other features on the hot surface of the firebox (think finned heat sink) to enhance the heat transfer from metal to air.

Q5: Is certain material inherently conductive in its nature and other material radiant?
A5: Yes, some materials radiate better or worse than others, this is measured as the material’s emissivity. However, put a blower on the stove, and you’ve just overwhelmed the much more minor differences in material emissivities. Sort of like worrying about the color of the paint, after someone spilled a can of it on your floor.

Q6: Is a soapstone stove or cast iron stove always more radiant while steel always more conductive? Would the Ideal Steel be pretty equally both as it's steel with a soapstone liner?
A6: Good questions. I am not sure of the emissivity numbers of each, but you could check. I was speaking to the design of each. Steel fireboxes are more often wrapped in a cast iron convective jacket, than traditional cast stove fireboxes or soapstone stoves.

Thanks Ashful! Glad I'm starting to get somewhere on this! I'll be ready for the mid-year exam in no time

So, getting back to my stove decision, I'm still taking all this in and hoping to at least decide by March if I'll go for the Ideal Steel, which is when I believe Woodstock will have their sale. Some here are suggesting that I'd be better off with a convective stove, and others saying it doesn't matter, and I still have some uncertainty of where the IS lays in the radiant to convective spectrum, but it sounds like whether conductive or radiant, any stove has some of both qualities, and by adding a blower (or fan) to the IS, I could make it more conductive, no?

We've pretty much established the IS is the right size for my home, but what is in question are two things: 1) Is it too big for the room it will be in and get that room overbearingly hot? 2) Will I effectively be able to move heat from the IS around my house, which doesn't have a completely open layout (but does have some open doorways, and an open staircase for heat to move). In regards to number 2, from what people are writing, it seems like with some trial and error, I can find a way to move heat around the house (with fans, through existing duct work, possibly cutting some registers in floors above doorways, etc.).

For what I think is the bigger issue of the possibility of overheating the stove room to an uncomfortable level, I am currently on vacation in Southern Florida (it's great down hear, but the one drawback is I can't play with my wood stove! ) and I'm thinking a lot about temperature and comfort. It's been pretty consistently 81 degrees here, which to us feels very comfortable in the shade, but in the direct sun it's way too hot. I read that direct solar radiation can raise the temp 10 to 15 degrees, so I'm presuming that this 81 air temp goes up to between 91 and 96 when in the sun. Would a wood stove have this same or a similar effect? For example, might the room temp be 81 but if you're within a certain distance directly in front of the stove, might that be 91 to 96? @Sconnie Burner wrote that he can sit near his Ideal Steel at full operating temp without feeling like a turkey in an oven, which is encouraging. That said, I'm realizing that I may have been a bit overzealous in my thinking we'd be fine in upper 80 temps and realistically it's more like lower 80s would be good for us. Getting the rest of the house warm with a stove of this size would be nice!

Thoughts?

 

[Ashful]

I’ll let others give opinions on the stove, as I really don’t have any experience with the stove in question. I’ll just leave you with one final thought: you’re not marrying this stove.

I went thru five stoves in three years. Choose something that you think might work today, and roll with it. If it turns out to be less than ideal, or if something better comes along (I guarantee it will), be prepared to swap it out. You can swap stoves on a Saturday morning with a buddy or two, it’s really not that big a deal. You’ll lose a few hundred $ in the transaction, but you can always resell a used stove in good condition.

 

[begreen]

There is no blower option for the IS or any Woodstock stove that I know of. You will have to achieve convection by external means. Although you are thinking of getting a sale price, you might also think of the 6 month return window. A stove purchased in the next month will use up that 6 month window before the next heating season. August might be a better time to purchase.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Kenny-

No amount of hypothesising or analysis is going to get you to a place even close to what you find out once you have the stove in the house burning away. Once you have that large chunk of hot burning, you can play around with fans, venting, etc.

People are offering lots of great information based on their specific experiences, which can be valuable. Don't go into analysis paralysis worrying too much about things like conductive vs radiant. Your house and situation is nothing like Ashful's.

You know your current stove is too small to do the job you want it to do. You know that you'll likely need fans and venting to move the heat around.

Use your judgement based on the information you have, don't hope for false precision in your decision making process. At some point, trust your gut and preferences, and let 'er rip.

 

[Ashful]

Don't go into analysis paralysis...

I’m going to have to remember that phrase. I used to suffer from it frequently, when money was tight and time more abundant.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I’m going to have to remember that phrase. I used to suffer from it frequently, when money was tight and time more abundant.

I often suffer from the same ailment. I offered the post from a position of understanding and support. The support group is called Wood Heaters Anonymous (WHA), and we have our own 12 steps- cut, split, stack, move 8 times, then finally, burn.

 

[kennyp2339]

I often suffer from the same ailment. I offered the post from a position of understanding and support. The support group is called Wood Heaters Anonymous (WHA), and we have our own 12 steps- cut, split, stack, move 8 times, then finally, burn.

My problem is that I have Champaign taste but beer pocket money

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

My problem is that I have Champaign taste but beer pocket money

High Life- The Champagne of Beers.

 

[kennyp2339]

High Life- The Champagne of Beers.

I wish, no beers until Easter, it’s my annual lent offering

 

[DuaeGuttae]

KennyK, it sounds like you’re really wanting to go with the Ideal Steel. I’d say go for it, especially if Woodstock will not start the six-month return window until next burning season.

One thing that you really ought to do first, though. Build yourself a full-size model out of cardboard and position it exactly where you’d have to have it on your hearth to meet all those special mantel clearances you’ve discussed at various points in this thread. Be sure you also include a cardboard hearth of appropriate size underneath the stove. Also look at your furniture to see where it would need to be to meet clearance requirements. See if you and your wife would be happy with that arrangement in the room.

If you aren’t happy with it, look again at insert options. I know you said you don’t think you have room, but there are non-flush inserts that don’t require as deep a firebox for installation. They’d need blowers to move heat most effectively, but it sounds as though that’s what you need anyway with your layout. I’m not sure what the considerations would be with the mantel in the case of an insert, however.

 

[Woody Stover]

A stove purchased in the next month will use up that 6 month window before the next heating season. August might be a better time to purchase.

The person I spoke with at Woodstock actually told me that if I bought it in March, they still wouldn't start that 6 month period until the start of next heating season!

 

[Woody Stover]

I wish, no beers until Easter, it’s my annual lent offering

Hopefully you just gave up beer for Lent. If so, I gotcha covered..stop by any time.

 

[begreen]

The person I spoke with at Woodstock actually told me that if I bought it in March, they still wouldn't start that 6 month period until the start of next heating season!

Get that in writing.

 

[KennyK]

Get that in writing.

I did, just this afternoon. Here was the response to my email this afternoon confirming what I had talked about with Woodstock over the phone:

"We offer the 6 month guarantee which starts during the next burning season if you purchase the stove now and accept delivery or pick it up in April or May. You don't need to know where you want your stove shipped, or if you are going to pick it up when you place your deposit, and you don't need to know the artwork or the colors, we can assist you with that."

Man, what a great company! Whether or not I decide to go with a Woodstock, I seriously respect their business model.

 

[KennyK]

This thread has offered me so much food for thought, helped me to think through my situation, options and decision ahead, helped my better understand conduction, convection and radiant heat, made me think and made me laugh...especially some of the recent posts here! Thank you all for your insight and your humor!

I’ll let others give opinions on the stove, as I really don’t have any experience with the stove in question. I’ll just leave you with one final thought: you’re not marrying this stove.

I went thru five stoves in three years. Choose something that you think might work today, and roll with it. If it turns out to be less than ideal, or if something better comes along (I guarantee it will), be prepared to swap it out. You can swap stoves on a Saturday morning with a buddy or two, it’s really not that big a deal. You’ll lose a few hundred $ in the transaction, but you can always resell a used stove in good condition.

Ashful, this was more helpful than you know! You are right, I'm not marrying this stove and this was a helpful reminder for me to chill out (while trying to warm up!). Thank you for the reminder! Whatever I decide, it will be okay, and if I'm not crazy about it, I can swap it out! If it ends up being the Ideal Steel (or another Woodstock stove), Woodstock makes that even easier giving me a full six months to test the stove from the start of next burning season. Thanks for the friendly reminder!

Kenny-

No amount of hypothesising or analysis is going to get you to a place even close to what you find out once you have the stove in the house burning away. Once you have that large chunk of hot burning, you can play around with fans, venting, etc.

People are offering lots of great information based on their specific experiences, which can be valuable. Don't go into analysis paralysis worrying too much about things like conductive vs radiant. Your house and situation is nothing like Ashful's.

You know your current stove is too small to do the job you want it to do. You know that you'll likely need fans and venting to move the heat around.

Use your judgement based on the information you have, don't hope for false precision in your decision making process. At some point, trust your gut and preferences, and let 'er rip.

I often suffer from the same ailment. I offered the post from a position of understanding and support. The support group is called Wood Heaters Anonymous (WHA), and we have our own 12 steps- cut, split, stack, move 8 times, then finally, burn.

Ed, you've helped me before with my analysis paralysis, and you're here to help me again! We apparently both have our need for the WHA, and I appreciate your support as my sponsor!

KennyK, it sounds like you’re really wanting to go with the Ideal Steel. I’d say go for it, especially if Woodstock will not start the six-month return window until next burning season.

One thing that you really ought to do first, though. Build yourself a full-size model out of cardboard and position it exactly where you’d have to have it on your hearth to meet all those special mantel clearances you’ve discussed at various points in this thread. Be sure you also include a cardboard hearth of appropriate size underneath the stove. Also look at your furniture to see where it would need to be to meet clearance requirements. See if you and your wife would be happy with that arrangement in the room.

If you aren’t happy with it, look again at insert options. I know you said you don’t think you have room, but there are non-flush inserts that don’t require as deep a firebox for installation. They’d need blowers to move heat most effectively, but it sounds as though that’s what you need anyway with your layout. I’m not sure what the considerations would be with the mantel in the case of an insert, however.

DuaeGuttae, this is great advice, and making a model will now be my next step. This stove is definitely sizable and even more so with pulling it forward to meet clearances, it won't be insignificant in terms of the space it takes up. I've measured the area a bunch of times and tried to imagine and visualize in my mind the space it would take up, but I think a 3D model, including hearth pad is absolutely necessary. If after making the model I still want to move forward with the IS, I will probably then make a trip to Woodstock in March to see one in person before purchasing. Fortunately, it's only a two hour drive for me and some nice country around there.

Thanks everyone! I will continue to update!