Ongoing Issues After BK Stove Service - Seeking advice

[kingbobiv]

Hey everyone,

Firstly, I'm sorry this is a bit of a novel, but we've been on a ride for weeks and I’m hoping for some guidance from those more experienced with BK stoves and service issues. Having a very stressful series of service visits that is leaving us wondering how to proceed with both the unit and the dealer. We've got a BK Princess insert (PI1010A) from the previous homeowner and love it. The previous owner was kind enough to give us a full deep dive and demo and over 4 years we've really become experts (somewhat via this forum!) on our specific stove and it's usage. We have a super deep knowledge of the model, but not of our own installation, so while we often know what needs doing, we always have a professional do that work.

That being said, we noticed the right side of firebox is always far less active than the left(during both lighting and long burns), and it was seeming to worsen over time (see photos). The glass was always caked on the right even after a few high burns completely cleaned the rest. It's always worked fantastically aside from this one issue, but we've also never been truly 100% positive if the stove is properly installed, so when I called local dealer for a mid-season cleaning I said I had some Q's for them during their inspection.

I'll try and give a clear timeline of the service visits:

Visit 1 (Tuesday): I told them about the right-side issue and said I also want to know as much as I can about the install (is anything obviously wrong? How/where does it pull in fresh air? Etc) for both my own knowledge/ownership of our stove but also to help diagnose the issue. I pointed out the door gasket is a tiny bit frayed near the handle and that I suspected that was the issue if they could just replace the gasket during the cleaning so we could rule in/out if that was the problem (I had the door gasket I ordered on-hand for them). I also pointed out that there was a chimney clean-out door on the exterior backside of the masonry chimney, just so it was on their radar as I have no idea if that is correctly set up or not.

They did the cleaning and pointed out that our liner was incorrectly installed and is also the wrong kind because it is corrugated and should be smooth, and is also not an insulated liner. They quoted $1700 to replace the liner with a smooth-walled insulated one. We said let's just see if the cleaning helped at all before we commit. They said the door gasket is fine even if a little frayed and did not replace it.

That night we went to light the fire, and I noticed the thermostat was off-center (still visible just off to the left a bit). I went to open the bypass and the entire backplate/shroud of the unit just fell right off. The screws were going into nothing and the shroud was not being held in place so the whole thing just detached and there was a ton of cold air blowing into the room. We didn't want to light a fire unsafely so we called and they said they'd come back next day to fix.

Visit 2 (Thursday): They came back to reattach the shroud and sides.

That night we light the fire, the issue on the right side is worse than ever. During lighting it up the left side was blowing flames back into the firebox like normal but they were coming out of the firebox on the right, along with lots of smoke. We let one load burn and the fresh clean glass was again clean on the left and caked on the right. We called and said let's go ahead and do the liner proposal.

Visit 3 (Tuesday): They came back to do the liner project. I said if we're doing the liner let's do a full monty on it: new liner, install a proper fresh air intake (he said there was none), and replace the door gasket. He said it would be $2700 which is a big jump, but we wanted the peace of mind knowing we finally just did the full install ourselves.

First he called BK support and said he'd never seen our glass issue, and they walked through Q's with him. When they asked if he used a new gasket when reseating the cat he said nope it was still nice and fresh. I knew that was a clear mistake, and BK told him as well, so after the call I asked if he could replace the gasket and provided the gasket roll to him (I had a bunch).

Within a few minutes he told us he found the chimney clean-out outside was stuffed full of insulation that was blocking the airflow. This seemed odd to me as it is just the right side that is acting strange, and otherwise the stove works great. He said he removed it all and was kind enough to point out that this probably solved our issue right there, but we proceeded with the rest to be sure we had a full proper install. I took some pics behind the unit while they had it pulled out. Before they left he again said he did not change door gasket because it passed all the tests and that the frayed bit is a non-issue.

That night we lit the fire and as it got toward the top of the range we noticed the left half of the cat was glowing and the right had something totally obstructing it. We panicked a bit as it was a full burn at this point and we did not know what was in there behind the flame guard. I stayed up with the fire until it died down a bit and next day I opened up and took a look, the cat gasket was completely flopped over the front of the cat and was blocking half of it. It crumbled away so we called to have the cat looked at and re-gasketed.

Visit 4 (Friday): Only my wife could be home for their visit to fix this, so in an abundance of caution I left them 60" of cat gasket, printed out the BK cat gasket replacement instructions, bought and left him 1" masking tape, and texted him exactly what we wanted him to do. I came home after work to check it out, and saw the combustor was installed upside down (it says in all caps not to do this), and the gasket was oddly all torn up and coming out the front more than it should. At this point I was confident I could do this better myself so I removed the cat and saw there was only a few inches of chopped up bits of gasket on the top, nothing wrapping the rest. I ordered more gasket cause there were somehow only a few inches left of mine, and the next day went to install myself, and it absolutely did not even close to fit, even without the gasket the cat was so warped it took full force to get it in even 1/2". To his credit, this is probably why his gasketing was a wreck.

At this point I ordered a new cat, it came pre-gasketed and taped nicely and slid right in. I fired it up and while you could immediately tell the new cat was fantastic for temps/lighting/activation... but after running two loads completely on high the door is now even more caked on the right and somewhat on the left than it ever was before. We also noticed the unit is way more cold and drafty than it used to be when it's off.

We don't even know what to do next, the only thing on my list to now just try and do myself is replace the door gasket. Beyond that though we want to somehow be sure of what was even done with the stove and if there were done correctly. Perhaps the air coming in is now too fresh and is cold? I read somewhere the clean-out should be sealed so now we're too nervous to use the stove at all.

Questions:
At this point I’m concerned both about the safety of the installation and about how to move forward with the dealer. Any and all advice on these points would be immensely appreciated, as it's been the coldest winter LI has had in ages and our fire's been pretty much out of commission for weeks (and I'm chewing through kindling like nuts with all this servicing).

• Does anyone have any idea what could be up with the right-side glass buildup in the first place? It's not the typical angel wings it's just heavy buildup on the right, on any setting. When on super low long burns the left gets buildup too like expected but the right outpaces it like crazy.
• What is the air intake setup on this insert supposed to look like? Is it meant to pull air from within the room? Is little clean-out door in the fireplace (see in pic) meant to have something like a pipe/tube running to the outside or just left open? If I have them come take a look or confirm with me I want to know what I'm even confirming. Anyone know if the door is supposed to be sealed or not? He did top/sides but left bottom unsealed for air, no idea if there's any fresh air "kit" beyond that.
• Lastly... how should we proceed with this dealer? There are only 2 in our area and I recall the other telling us to take a hike years ago because they weren't the original installer. We're in ~$3000 already so I'd had to have to find another party to check/redo their work, but I also want to be civil as these guys were really nice, and I have a feeling maybe just took too many guesses and swings/misses at a stove they weren't an expert on. For our sake as well I'd also like to keep them, but after this work on the stove I wonder how I'd even approach that or if it's not advisable to do more with them in the first place? Thoughts?

Some Q's for me that I'm sure will come up immediately so I'll add info in advance:

• We're super diligent with the wood we burn, this season has been consistently ~8-15% and I'm positive it's not the wood (it lights fantastically, again the only issue was the odd right side glass buildup)
• We've had this issue a while, on super cold days, shoulder season, windows open/closed for more draft, before cleanings after cleanings, etc.

I'm so sorry for the crazy amount of info/questions! If any brave soul happens to get to this point, any help is very much appreciated. There are some real wizzes on this forum and even BK experts I see sometimes, perhaps someone can help us figure out the next steps 'cause we really do love this stove and it is the heart of our home. (We just want to confidently use it safely and not have permanently dirty glass). Thank you very very much.

-Vincent

 

[Dieselhead]

Unless you are burning at a rate where there is active flame in the box you are going to have dirty glass. Even with just some flame still expect a pretty good haze. What I see on the right side of your door should normally be mirrored on the left. Have you done a “dollar bill test” on the door to check its seal? I’d guess not because I feel you would have mentioned it. Next time stove goes out or close to it close a bill in the door and try to slide it out. It shouldn’t slide out easily it should almost want to tear. If it’s too loose it’s letting too much air in and that’s where the 1 sided fire and 1 side clean glass is coming from. Installer may of stretched it out too much instead of leaving it “fluffy”. Also did he bed the gasket in high temp silicone? If not it should have been. Share some pics of the gasket when possible.

 

[BKVP]

Our products burn differently in each install. My KE40 likes to burn up front and to the left side. I'll drag fuel on the right side into center when I reload.

There is no fresh air option on our inserts, dealer is correct.

The thermostat draws room air. The thermostat is in front of shroud behind same piece where knob is for changing burn rate.

The ash clean out would have no influence on your concerns. Having insulation in there will help keep cold air from infiltrating your warmer (desired) stack temps.

Piece length and loading orientation will affect glass build up as will MC and burn rate.

From images posted, your inherited PI inserts is working fine.

As for dealer related issues or concerns, speak to the owner.

BKVP

 

[kingbobiv]

Unless you are burning at a rate where there is active flame in the box you are going to have dirty glass. Even with just some flame still expect a pretty good haze. What I see on the right side of your door should normally be mirrored on the left. Have you done a “dollar bill test” on the door to check its seal? I’d guess not because I feel you would have mentioned it. Next time stove goes out or close to it close a bill in the door and try to slide it out. It shouldn’t slide out easily it should almost want to tear. If it’s too loose it’s letting too much air in and that’s where the 1 sided fire and 1 side clean glass is coming from. Installer may of stretched it out too much instead of leaving it “fluffy”. Also did he bed the gasket in high temp silicone? If not it should have been. Share some pics of the gasket when possible.

Thanks for the reply!
- For the dirty glass, I agree I always get some buildup on flameless/longer/lower burns, but usually not when leaving the intake on high and cranking a full load to the max for a couple hours. The most recent buildup was after 2 consecutive full high burns which usually would clear things up rather than add to it. Feels odd that now a high temp high flame burn is also dirtying the glass.
- For the gasket, after all 4 visits he kept saying it passed all tests and did not replace it. Pics attached here. I just tested a dollar bill around and it's snuggly stuck everywhere except the right side where it slides out without much tension. 🤦‍♂️(thanks for the tip)

Part of the service was to have any necessary gaskets replaced and over 4 visits I asked 4 times for him to replace it regardless because I just wanted to rule out that it was the issue and I have a brand new one and the gasket caulk sitting here , but he kept saying he tested it and that it was not the gasket and did not replace it. From this test it seems that was potentially the original issue. I'll be trying to replace it myself after seeing the other gasket install (🤞).

But am still worried about the rest of his work now, especially him pulling the insulation out of the clean-out and leaving the door unsealed. I have no idea what "air intake kit" he used as I never saw anything at all go in.

 

[kingbobiv]

Our products burn differently in each install. My KE40 likes to burn up front and to the left side. I'll drag fuel on the right side into center when I reload.

There is no fresh air option on our inserts, dealer is correct.

The thermostat draws room air. The thermostat is in front of shroud behind same piece where knob is for changing burn rate.

The ash clean out would have no influence on your concerns. Having insulation in there will help keep cold air from infiltrating your warmer (desired) stack temps.

Piece length and loading orientation will affect glass build up as will MC and burn rate.

From images posted, your inherited PI inserts is working fine.

As for dealer related issues or concerns, speak to the owner.

BKVP

Wow thank you so much for the info, that's a huge peace of mind and huge to finally know how the air intake is meant to work. It seems then that all of the updates were probably nice to have except that we had to redo the combustor ourselves and that the clean-out wasn't meant to be left open.

I'll contact them and see if we can sort it out, funny enough this was the owner doing the work himself, but I think there is a co-owner so I'll speak to them on it as well. They've really been very friendly and super responsive so we want to help keep the relationship, it was just the few missteps that had us worried we ruined a setup that was generally working great.

Appreciate you chiming in!

 

[kborndale]

You say some of your wood is 8%, thats a very difficult number to reach on Long Island. I'm assuming you have a moisture meter to check it, can you tell us your process in checking your wood. It may very well be below 20% but I'm quite skeptical it will reach 8% in our coastal region.

 

[kingbobiv]

You say some of your wood is 8%, thats a very difficult number to reach on Long Island. I'm assuming you have a moisture meter to check it, can you tell us your process in checking your wood. It may very well be below 20% but I'm quite skeptical it will reach 8% in our coastal region.

Hey sure! Yes I use a moisture meter and usually stick the pins as hard as I can in both ends and somewhere in the middle and just kinda get an average of each before I throw it in the wheelbarrow. If it's over 16ish I throw it back on an empty rack for next season.

They're most often closer to about 12% as a rough average of a season, one year an entire chord came in over 20 it threw us off rhythm. This year I think we just got a good bunch I've got mostly around 9ish, occasionally a 12 in there, been very easy to light up.

Happy for tips though let me know! Maybe I'm doing it totally wrong! 😅

 

[BKVP]

Water in wood freezes. MM don't work with frozen wood. Bring a piece indoors. Let sit 24 hours, but not in stove room. Split the wood and pushing pins with the grain, take the reading from the fresh split face.

BKVP

 

[Highbeam]

Hey sure! Yes I use a moisture meter and usually stick the pins as hard as I can in both ends and somewhere in the middle and just kinda get an average of each before I throw it in the wheelbarrow. If it's over 16ish I throw it back on an empty rack for next season.

They're most often closer to about 12% as a rough average of a season, one year an entire chord came in over 20 it threw us off rhythm. This year I think we just got a good bunch I've got mostly around 9ish, occasionally a 12 in there, been very easy to light up.

Happy for tips though let me know! Maybe I'm doing it totally wrong! 😅

I see your gloves, the splits must be at room temperature, say 70, for an accurate measurement. And you need to stick the probes into a freshly split face. Your wood is wetter than you think but maybe still okay.

If the latch side is leaking can you not tighten the latch on the insert? On my princess the latch can be tightened so that the latch side seals better.The gasket is not hard to replace but there are some ways to screw it up. You'll want to use RTV, a thick silicone, and not thin gasket glue because the BK door design puts giant nuts under the gasket that you need to bridge.

Insulation on a liner is a good thing but the liner doesn't need to be smooth walled.

I think I'd seal up the cleanout door, maybe reinstall the insulation plug. So do you have a block off plate above the insert or is it open to the chimney cap? I am guessing the dealer doesn't do block off plates based on their other actions.

 

[kingbobiv]

Water in wood freezes. MM don't work with frozen wood. Bring a piece indoors. Let sit 24 hours, but not in stove room. Split the wood and pushing pins with the grain, take the reading from the fresh split face.

BKVP

I see your gloves, the splits must be at room temperature, say 70, for an accurate measurement. And you need to stick the probes into a freshly split face. Your wood is wetter than you think but maybe still okay.

If the latch side is leaking can you not tighten the latch on the insert? On my princess the latch can be tightened so that the latch side seals better.The gasket is not hard to replace but there are some ways to screw it up. You'll want to use RTV, a thick silicone, and not thin gasket glue because the BK door design puts giant nuts under the gasket that you need to bridge.

Insulation on a liner is a good thing but the liner doesn't need to be smooth walled.

I think I'd seal up the cleanout door, maybe reinstall the insulation plug. So do you have a block off plate above the insert or is it open to the chimney cap? I am guessing the dealer doesn't do block off plates based on their other actions.

Ah good tips thanks very much! These have been indoors a few weeks (I just use these gloves for everything cause the wood's dirty 😅), I'll try it out next time with a fresh split and see 👍

For the latch, I actually replaced it a while back as it was all worn down, and what I dug up was that this is an older princess where only the latch itself is threaded and turns (the nut on the inside is welded to the firebox). So i can only go a full turn in or out at a time. I've got it as tight as I can as one more turn I can't fit the latch. It needs force to close and is scraping the metal off the door latch piece over time so a good sign at least that it's not super loose. When I did the dollar bill test earlier it's super snug (can't slide at all) around everywhere except that one spot on the right. The bill needed a liiiittle force to pull but then slid out freely after it gets moving. Anyone know if it's possible to break off the inner nut and have the 2-way fine-tune adjustment of newer models? 😅 That'd be gold

Thanks @Highbeam , actually just chatted with them and they agreed redoing the clean-out sealing is actually correct so they're gonna come by and close it back off! They're great guys I think just were guessing a bit on the root cause of the issue.
Also one of the pics from the original post has a picture of the top behind the unit where I can see light coming in, so nothing there I guess, but that was before they finished so not 100% sure if they did a block off plate, they're gonna confirm that there is insulation blocking off the cavity around the liner, is that all that needs doing? Is an actual plate vs just insulation something critical to have?

 

[kborndale]

Hey sure! Yes I use a moisture meter and usually stick the pins as hard as I can in both ends and somewhere in the middle and just kinda get an average of each before I throw it in the wheelbarrow. If it's over 16ish I throw it back on an empty rack for next season.

They're most often closer to about 12% as a rough average of a season, one year an entire chord came in over 20 it threw us off rhythm. This year I think we just got a good bunch I've got mostly around 9ish, occasionally a 12 in there, been very easy to light up.

Happy for tips though let me know! Maybe I'm doing it totally wrong! 😅

As others have said you need to take a warm piece outside, grab an ax, resplit it and check the middle of the freshly split edge. Don't worry about the ends. If your buying your firewood it generally needs at minimum a full summer to season before it is ready to burn. Some species like oak which we have a lot of on LI can take 2-3 years after being split to be ready to burn.

 

[Highbeam]

Ah good tips thanks very much! These have been indoors a few weeks (I just use these gloves for everything cause the wood's dirty 😅), I'll try it out next time with a fresh split and see 👍

For the latch, I actually replaced it a while back as it was all worn down, and what I dug up was that this is an older princess where only the latch itself is threaded and turns (the nut on the inside is welded to the firebox). So i can only go a full turn in or out at a time. I've got it as tight as I can as one more turn I can't fit the latch. It needs force to close and is scraping the metal off the door latch piece over time so a good sign at least that it's not super loose. When I did the dollar bill test earlier it's super snug (can't slide at all) around everywhere except that one spot on the right. The bill needed a liiiittle force to pull but then slid out freely after it gets moving. Anyone know if it's possible to break off the inner nut and have the 2-way fine-tune adjustment of newer models? 😅 That'd be gold

Thanks @Highbeam , actually just chatted with them and they agreed redoing the clean-out sealing is actually correct so they're gonna come by and close it back off! They're great guys I think just were guessing a bit on the root cause of the issue.
Also one of the pics from the original post has a picture of the top behind the unit where I can see light coming in, so nothing there I guess, but that was before they finished so not 100% sure if they did a block off plate, they're gonna confirm that there is insulation blocking off the cavity around the liner, is that all that needs doing? Is an actual plate vs just insulation something critical to have?

Time for a new door gasket if you've got a loose spot and bottomed out latch. In the meantime, folks often use a pin to pick pull and "plump" up the gasket to get by for awhile.

My princess has the old styule welded in nut and so far so good. I worry about full turn adjustments and of course ruining those threads. The door latch on mine is wearing out too, seems normal. A fat new gasket from BK will get the latch adjustment back out in the middle of the range. While you're at it, or perhaps now, you can check the glass gasket.

 

[stoveliker]

if you do get a new gasket, get one from the dealer (from BK) - ones you can get online are not as fat (highbeam's word ) as the one from BK that you do need for proper door sealing.

 

[kingbobiv]

Time for a new door gasket if you've got a loose spot and bottomed out latch. In the meantime, folks often use a pin to pick pull and "plump" up the gasket to get by for awhile.

My princess has the old styule welded in nut and so far so good. I worry about full turn adjustments and of course ruining those threads. The door latch on mine is wearing out too, seems normal. A fat new gasket from BK will get the latch adjustment back out in the middle of the range. While you're at it, or perhaps now, you can check the glass gasket.

Thanks I try and 'plump' it up occasionally but it's always tough to do much to it, never thought to pick/pull it with a pin 💡gotta give that a try!

I'm weary of changing the door gasket on my own but think I can manage, the glass gasket I'm definitely more afraid to do myself as I'm afraid of damaging the glass trying to loosen those nuts up and re-tighten and all that. How do you test your glass gasket? Is there a method like door gasket's dollar bill test? Any go-to guide/video resource you recommend that might help for changing out the door and/or glass gaskets?

if you do get a new gasket, get one from the dealer (from BK) - ones you can get online are not as fat (highbeam's word ) as the one from BK that you do need for proper door sealing.

😂 thanks I'll make sure it's a fatty

 

[stoveliker]

glass: on a cold (...) stove, open the door, place both hands flat on the glass, squeezing it between the two palms, and try to slide it within the plane of the door frame. If you can move the glass up and down or sideways in the door frame, it's too loose. If no movement, you're good.

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks I try and 'plump' it up occasionally but it's always tough to do much to it, never thought to pick/pull it with a pin 💡gotta give that a try!

I'm weary of changing the door gasket on my own but think I can manage, the glass gasket I'm definitely more afraid to do myself as I'm afraid of damaging the glass trying to loosen those nuts up and re-tighten and all that. How do you test your glass gasket? Is there a method like door gasket's dollar bill test? Any go-to guide/video resource you recommend that might help for changing out the door and/or glass gaskets?



😂 thanks I'll make sure it's a fatty

I made a whole thread with pics about changing mine. I’d like to think it would be helpful for you. Click on my username and look through threads started by me.

Checking the glass gasket is done on a cold stove. You place both flat palms together with the glass between and try and move the glass fore and aft. Wiggle it. Should be solid. The glass nuts are under the door gasket so if it needs to be replaced, you want to do it at the same time.

Both of these can be done by a good dealer at their shop. Just lift the door off and bring it in but as you found it’s hard to find good help.