Reverting an Old Farmhouse to Wood Heat

[MedicineHorse]

Although I’ve been reading this forum extensively, I’m a new member here and this is my first post. I hope it is not too long. We recently acquired a farm including an 1896 typical Ontario working farmer's 1 1/2 storey re-brick farmhouse with a centre gable front second storey window. There are two framed additions behind the original brick. In sum we’re roughly 2200 square feet in total, spread deep front to back with many medium and smaller size rooms.

Currently this drafty old farmhouse is centrally heated with an ancient oil guzzling forced-air furnace that has been granted a stay of execution by our insurance company until next June (2019). Evident from the uninsurable classic no-name “airtight” still needing to be removed from the rear addition, heat won’t move nicely from front through middle to back even with central heating. Last winter—or so we learned after the sale—the house gobbled $4000 in oil plus 3 bush cords last winter. Even though we plan to close off most of the rear addition for this winter at least (eventually to become my psychotherapy office) we need to get a good wood-burning solution in the right location, fast, and find a good wood supply. Eventually we will be able to burn our own cord wood. That said, I’m in my sixties, feeling the cold more, and aware of the work I may be biting off with wood… but also aware that doing so will be good exercise. Not looking to retire any time soon.

With the recent UN dire warning on climate change fresh in our minds, and given that we are attempting to create an equine facilitated healing centre on this property, my bias is to get as low emissions as we can in the spirit of overall healing. My own background with wood was as a much younger man and largely predates EPA standards and secondary burn technologies. I think I have a good handle on the pros and cons of cats, but so far no experience with them or position on them. I am intrigued by hybrids which of course incorporate cats. I like the look, specs and reputation of the Woodstock hybrids, though I’ve never seen one in the flesh let alone handled one. Given the USD exchange rate, they’ll be expensive and then there is international shipping, and at this time of year a long wait for delivery (maybe after Xmas now). Our local and apparently reputable hearth pro deals in Lopi, Regency and Vermont Castings—all being US will cost us roughly 75% more than comparable medium-sized models of his preferred home-grown Canadian brand, Pacific Energy. With classic cast iron styling being more suitable for this old farm, he is nudging us toward an Alderlea T5. I like its relative simplicity, its north-south load, its looks and the flip out warmers, but am unhappy with its emissions (roughly double the 2020 standard) which means that it is at the end of its production life cycle. If its replacement, the announced but still secret T5 LE was available and proven, we’d go with that, but it isn’t and PE says the current T5 won’t be upgradable. We could wait a year or 18 months to see if they get it to market but it would be a cold and costly year.

My question is, what is our next best bet... or do we go with the Alderlea for now and replace it in 3-5 years once there are more post-2020 choices available?

 

[bholler]

Ok try writing a more concise post stating your needs.

But i can tell you there are lots of good canadian stoves available. Regency is one of them

 

[maple1]

Add on a wood furnace?

 

[MedicineHorse]

Ok try writing a more concise post stating your needs.

But i can tell you there are lots of good canadian stoves available. Regency is one of them

Thanks bholler. Because of your message I went back and looked at Regency and realize I'd mis-read something along the line that made me think it would be an import. Clearly home-grown. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[bholler]

Thanks. Because of your message I went back and looked at Regency and realize I'd mis-read something along the line that made me think it would be an import. Clearly home-grown. Thanks for the heads-up.

Ok so now how much space do you want to heat? What chimney do you have? How much wood do you have cut split and covered.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Add on a wood furnace?

Thanks maple1,

Something we've been considering for sure (and its not off the table), but it would mean a replacement—not an add-on—and perhaps require a complete re-do of the central heating system. So a much bigger deal than it might be if we had a reliable system in place already. If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably look pretty seriously an outdoor furnace, but in our current reality that means converting to a fluid heat system indoors so as not to lose efficiency. And while I prefer radiant fluid heat to air ducts, we'd then be into a $40K+ re-fit. Heat is just one of the many issues with this old place and I'd rather keep it as one of our small ticket renovations not large ticket. Still, when all is said and done, nothing is completely off the table. At the same time, its already -4 with windchill right now and getting colder, and not yet Halloween, and I'm tired of being cold. Last winter we had a lot of sub -35 windchill days and nights and this winter is stacking up to be colder still.

 

[maple1]

Multiple rooms over multiple stories begs for central heating.

 

[peakbagger]

GIven the equine comment, you are definitely "putting the cart before the horse". No matter what heat supply you use, you are going to be using a lot of it. A very rough number is one cord of dry wood is roughly 100 gallons of fuel oil. So divide the number of gallons used by 100 and that is how many cords of wood you will need to be processing and lugging around every year. The goal should be insulate and tighten up the house first and then get heating system to match the vastly reduced load. If its drafty old farmhouse it may have zero insulation. Lot to be said to talk to a contractor and have the walls pumped either full of foam or cellulose, get the attic insulated and spray the sills and boxes with foam if you can get at them. Odds are you have single pane windows most likely with sash cords and weights. In the short term cover the entire window including casing with plastic and decide if you want to keep the windows in the long run or replace them. If you want to keep them, you can convert them to a spring type assist and then cut the sash cords and pump the sash pockets full of foam, then buy storm windows to install outside the main window and consider window quilts on the interior.

With respect to heat you really need a wood boiler with storage if you dont mind the labor or go with bulk feed pellet boiler if there is local supplier. Wood stoves are fine for supplemental heat but for primary heat nothing beats a wood boiler with storage. Otherwise you end up having times where a stove needs to be damped down and that means poor combustion and localized pollution. Dont let anyone con you into a outdoor wood boiler.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Ok so now how much space do you want to heat? What chimney do you have? How much wood do you have cut split and covered.

bholler, good questions, thanks.

Chimney would be installed according to need, and so it's not a constraint. I gather its most flexible to have 8". BTW, can't hook into the furnace chimney due to code. Primary target is the old brick part of the house, 2x400 sq ft floors. Best location of a first floor stove puts it 7-9' from door into middle addition, and we'd have a door fan to help move heat through to that space. Not far inside that middle addition is the thermostat for the currently central oil. I'd try to move wood heat toward central cold air return as well so that on cold days we can pre-heat furnace heat with the fan override.

Two bedrooms above the middle addition and 3 in the brick. Heat can easily rise via stairways to each section second storey, and upstairs doesn't need to be as warm anyway. If anything I'm anticipating that making downstairs comfortable may result in having to crack open bedroom windows on all but the coldest days. At least that is my current thinking. We really need a winter in this place to understand how it works, and in the ideal world we wouldn't be making any decisions until after that time, but of course this is real world, and anyway it's been cold enough soon enough that I'm already getting some inkling as to how it would be without supplementing with wood: cold and drafty.

As to the rear part of the house, I have no illusions of reaching back there with a front room wood stove. Even the duct work doesn't reach the back. In another year, once other decisions have been made and executed, it will need its own autonomous heat source. With lots of wood chips and horse manure available I may experiment with compost in-floor heating, or I may go pellet or gas fire, even electric or some combination, but that's all for later. Right now we need to get the core of the house comfortable.

re wood: For year one we'll need to bring in local wood. Still sourcing. So far I have an 6x20 pile of our own trees cut that will need processing over the next couple of months for next year or the year after. Only Manitoba maple so far, not a great wood for deep winter but fine for shoulder season if we can get it dry. I have available hard cover for it once its cut and split. We also have a small maple bush, but still immature for harvesting, an meanwhile around the farm, some random maple deadfall ongoing...

 

[MedicineHorse]

Multiple rooms over multiple stories begs for central heating.

I appreciate that, maple1. I'll always need some central heating. Although I prefer fluid, with our current forced air system I can direct wood stove heat into the central cold air return and take advantage of the furnace fan to distribute heat further and otherwise reduce our dependence on oil now and probably propane next year. 5 - 10 years from now there will probably be natural gas out here so propane is a logical interim step for the central system. At least that's my current thinking.

 

[MedicineHorse]

GIven the equine comment, you are definitely "putting the cart before the horse". No matter what heat supply you use, you are going to be using a lot of it. A very rough number is one cord of dry wood is roughly 100 gallons of fuel oil. So divide the number of gallons used by 100 and that is how many cords of wood you will need to be processing and lugging around every year. The goal should be insulate and tighten up the house first and then get heating system to match the vastly reduced load. If its drafty old farmhouse it may have zero insulation. Lot to be said to talk to a contractor and have the walls pumped either full of foam or cellulose, get the attic insulated and spray the sills and boxes with foam if you can get at them. Odds are you have single pane windows most likely with sash cords and weights. In the short term cover the entire window including casing with plastic and decide if you want to keep the windows in the long run or replace them. If you want to keep them, you can convert them to a spring type assist and then cut the sash cords and pump the sash pockets full of foam, then buy storm windows to install outside the main window and consider window quilts on the interior.

With respect to heat you really need a wood boiler with storage if you dont mind the labor or go with bulk feed pellet boiler if there is local supplier. Wood stoves are fine for supplemental heat but for primary heat nothing beats a wood boiler with storage. Otherwise you end up having times where a stove needs to be damped down and that means poor combustion and localized pollution. Dont let anyone con you into a outdoor wood boiler.

Thanks peakbagger. Very useful to have that conversion info that I didn't have yet. I assume you (and most people on this forum) are talking bush cords not face cords, correct?

Most of the windows are newer than you anticipate. No low-e glass or anything like that but some older thermopane (not showing signed of leaks yet) and storms in place. Not great but better than you're describing so that they can be gradually upgraded over time. Insulation/re-insulation is part of the plan. Attic and basement will get all new insulation in coming months. Walls are another issue. Not much wall cavity to blow into. Means a gut job and building in... a much much more carefully investigated and planned project for years 2-4. FYI my preference would be a boiler propane/wood (eventually gas/wood) but right now we have oil forced aire and that switch is a big one in every respect. Meanwhile for year 1, we need to work within such contraints and given also the aesthetics of living space wood heating, I don't think it is a bad mis-step to go with a wood stove. I've been trying to build such a plan for months but every day have new discoveries that turn things on their head, and meanwhile getting contractors out here to quote, let alone do the work, has been a nightmare. So, obviously its not ideal to not have a master plan fully in place but there are only 24 hours in a day, one of me at this point, and this old house is just one of my great many concerns. Water, fields, pests, predators, planting, harvesting, selling, fencing, livestock care and housing, security, marketing, regulatory constraints and licensing are but a few of those.

 

[MedicineHorse]

GIven the equine comment, you are definitely "putting the cart before the horse". No matter what heat supply you use, you are going to be using a lot of it. A very rough number is one cord of dry wood is roughly 100 gallons of fuel oil. So divide the number of gallons used by 100 and that is how many cords of wood you will need to be processing and lugging around every year. The goal should be insulate and tighten up the house first and then get heating system to match the vastly reduced load. If its drafty old farmhouse it may have zero insulation. Lot to be said to talk to a contractor and have the walls pumped either full of foam or cellulose, get the attic insulated and spray the sills and boxes with foam if you can get at them. Odds are you have single pane windows most likely with sash cords and weights. In the short term cover the entire window including casing with plastic and decide if you want to keep the windows in the long run or replace them. If you want to keep them, you can convert them to a spring type assist and then cut the sash cords and pump the sash pockets full of foam, then buy storm windows to install outside the main window and consider window quilts on the interior.

With respect to heat you really need a wood boiler with storage if you dont mind the labor or go with bulk feed pellet boiler if there is local supplier. Wood stoves are fine for supplemental heat but for primary heat nothing beats a wood boiler with storage. Otherwise you end up having times where a stove needs to be damped down and that means poor combustion and localized pollution. Dont let anyone con you into a outdoor wood boiler.

BTW, peakbagger, not nearly having done enough research, I haven't developed any strong stance on outdoor wood boilers, only that I know they are one of the many options. What is or are your objection(s) to them?

 

[peakbagger]

Outdoor wood boilers have been banned in several US states, significantly restricted in others and even the so called clean burning ones are playing with a loophole in the law. An OWB without a large storage tank ( very rare) only runs cleanly when the heating demand meets the wood being fed to it. Not many folks want to sit there and manually feed an OWB so the result is they fill them up once or twice a day and once the heating load is met, the boiler cranks down the air damper and the unit run without enough air for complete combustion. That leads to two things, high carbon monoxide emissions out the short stack and large amounts of incomplete combustion byproducts spewing out of the firebox into the stack which generally has poor dispersion characteristics. If its tall enough than it cakes with creosote. This is not a efficient way to burn wood and is going to lead to the odor of poorly burned wood surrounding the area of the OWB which is generally right near the house. Running the pipes underground from the boiler to the house can be done to minimize loss but many home built installations lose a lot of heat in this piping due to groundwater penetration.

Not sure what a "bush cord" is but the standard value for US cord is 128 cubic feet in volume or 4' high by 4' deep by 8' long. The BTU content can vary by as much as 50% or more depending on seasoning.

Note if you dont have a significant pile of cut split and seasoned wood that is at least 1 year old and preferably 2 to 3 years old for the entire season already any modern EPA wood stove is going to be very difficult to operate as your wood will no be fully seasoned. Older stoves are somewhat more capable of dealing with wet wood but the trade off is lower efficiency when you finally can feed them dry wood. Given your list of projects, lot to be said to go with pellets as they come pre-seasoned and have a higher density so less weight to haul around.

 

[jetsam]

My question is, what is our next best bet... or do we go with the Alderlea for now and replace it in 3-5 years once there are more post-2020 choices available?

Are you just trying to heat the house are are you looking at heating a horse barn also? You might be looking at either a commercial wood gasification boiler or multiple smaller stoves/boilers.

If you're just talking about the house, I'd hurry up and put in something big and then work on insulation for the winter.

So if you're big-stove shopping, the first question is how you intend to vent it. Will it get a new roof penetration? Will it go through a fireplace chimney? Can you fit an 8" insulated liner in the chimney? How about 6"?

Figure out the venting and available clearances first, and then the guys here can give you some ideas. If you're venting through a fireplace, provide some measurements and photos.

As for the 2020 stuff, there are already plenty of stoves that meet 2020 standards.

 

[begreen]

I appreciate that, maple1. I'll always need some central heating. Although I prefer fluid, with our current forced air system I can direct wood stove heat into the central cold air return and take advantage of the furnace fan to distribute heat further and otherwise reduce our dependence on oil now and probably propane next year. 5 - 10 years from now there will probably be natural gas out here so propane is a logical interim step for the central system. At least that's my current thinking.

Using the forced air system to distribute the heat from a wood stove upstairs often fails due to duct losses. Considering the main furnace needs replacing maybe look into putting in a new wood/oil furnace from Caddy or Yukon.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

BTW, peakbagger, not nearly having done enough research, I haven't developed any strong stance on outdoor wood boilers, only that I know they are one of the many options. What is or are your objection(s) to them?

You have to go outside to load them!

In the words of Hudson: "You can count me out!"

 

[jetsam]

My neighbor has one. He burns 10-15 cords of unseasoned wood per year and is real happy with it.

He could probably burn half of that if he insulated the lines and seasoned the wood, but that's not happening.

 

[peakbagger]

As long as he lives far away that you dont have to put up with the local smog produced by an OWB. NH requires a minimum 300 foot radius.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

My neighbor has one. He burns 10-15 cords of unseasoned wood per year and is real happy with it.

He could probably burn half of that if he insulated the lines and seasoned the wood, but that's not happening.

Yuck. Bad neighbor.

 

[maple1]

Thanks maple1,

Something we've been considering for sure (and its not off the table), but it would mean a replacement—not an add-on—and perhaps require a complete re-do of the central heating system. So a much bigger deal than it might be if we had a reliable system in place already. If we were starting from scratch, I'd probably look pretty seriously an outdoor furnace, but in our current reality that means converting to a fluid heat system indoors so as not to lose efficiency. And while I prefer radiant fluid heat to air ducts, we'd then be into a $40K+ re-fit. Heat is just one of the many issues with this old place and I'd rather keep it as one of our small ticket renovations not large ticket. Still, when all is said and done, nothing is completely off the table. At the same time, its already -4 with windchill right now and getting colder, and not yet Halloween, and I'm tired of being cold. Last winter we had a lot of sub -35 windchill days and nights and this winter is stacking up to be colder still.

I'm not sure from your reply if you understood, that I meant an add-on wood furnace (hot air) and not a boiler (hot water).

You have to remember that based on posts so far, we know next to nothing about all your current system, or situation re. what you might be able to put where.

As already hinted at - if you don't have a whole winters worth of wood already seasoned and ready to go, you are really behind a rather huge 8-ball for this coming winter.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Outdoor wood boilers have been banned in several US states, significantly restricted in others and even the so called clean burning ones are playing with a loophole in the law. An OWB without a large storage tank ( very rare) only runs cleanly when the heating demand meets the wood being fed to it. Not many folks want to sit there and manually feed an OWB so the result is they fill them up once or twice a day and once the heating load is met, the boiler cranks down the air damper and the unit run without enough air for complete combustion. That leads to two things, high carbon monoxide emissions out the short stack and large amounts of incomplete combustion byproducts spewing out of the firebox into the stack which generally has poor dispersion characteristics. If its tall enough than it cakes with creosote. This is not a efficient way to burn wood and is going to lead to the odor of poorly burned wood surrounding the area of the OWB which is generally right near the house. Running the pipes underground from the boiler to the house can be done to minimize loss but many home built installations lose a lot of heat in this piping due to groundwater penetration.

Not sure what a "bush cord" is but the standard value for US cord is 128 cubic feet in volume or 4' high by 4' deep by 8' long. The BTU content can vary by as much as 50% or more depending on seasoning.

Note if you dont have a significant pile of cut split and seasoned wood that is at least 1 year old and preferably 2 to 3 years old for the entire season already any modern EPA wood stove is going to be very difficult to operate as your wood will no be fully seasoned. Older stoves are somewhat more capable of dealing with wet wood but the trade off is lower efficiency when you finally can feed them dry wood. Given your list of projects, lot to be said to go with pellets as they come pre-seasoned and have a higher density so less weight to haul around.

peakbagger, thank you for your detailed explanation... very helpful. Perhaps "bush cord' is an old Canadian or at least Ontarian term but it refers to a full cord as you have described... but hey, this is Canada in 2018: how many litres is that?

I hear your wisdom in your words about my limited time. Pellet is not off the table but for all their practicalities, I still don't like them much. Just personal preference... but we'll see. Thanks again.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Are you just trying to heat the house are are you looking at heating a horse barn also? You might be looking at either a commercial wood gasification boiler or multiple smaller stoves/boilers.

If you're just talking about the house, I'd hurry up and put in something big and then work on insulation for the winter.

So if you're big-stove shopping, the first question is how you intend to vent it. Will it get a new roof penetration? Will it go through a fireplace chimney? Can you fit an 8" insulated liner in the chimney? How about 6"?

Figure out the venting and available clearances first, and then the guys here can give you some ideas. If you're venting through a fireplace, provide some measurements and photos.

As for the 2020 stuff, there are already plenty of stoves that meet 2020 standards.

Thanks jetsam. Just heating the house. We're mid bat exclusion. Re-insulation will follow in due course. I want to hurry because I want to be warm without solely depending on this old oil guzzler, but I'm tempering my rush trying to do it as right as possible. Strangely, no pre-existing fireplace. and otherwise no existing venting to piggy-bank on. New venting will be the installer's department. Dealing with that myself is definitely a bridge too far.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Using the forced air system to distribute the heat from a wood stove upstairs often fails due to duct losses. Considering the main furnace needs replacing maybe look into putting in a new wood/oil furnace from Caddy or Yukon.

Thanks begreen. Moving heat upstairs is less a concern than moving it horizontal back through the first floor because of the big open stairways taking off from a point just in front of the likely woodstove location. On the other hand I am certainly looking at a dual wood furnace, though with propane rather than oil for a whole bunch of reasons but especially cost and insurance issues but also the expected arrival of natural gas to this area in the next few years... an easy conversion propane to gas. We're in a windy location prone to hydro outages, and so I need some off-grid insurance with self-sufficient wood.

begreen, how long have you had your Alderlea? Would you go that route again knowing what you know now and what competition is out there, and if so, against the current field of competitors, would you upgrade to the LE version presuming it proves out?

 

[MedicineHorse]

You have to go outside to load them!

In the words of Hudson: "You can count me out!"

Right, yes.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Check out SBI products. They are Canadian made. Myfireplaceproducts.com seems like their retail outlet website. Free shipping. I'm delighted with the products and service I received from them. And, all at prices that won't preclude an upgrade to fancier options in the future, if you so choose.

All that said, no seasoned wood, no dice with wood heat for the '18-'19 season.