Woodstock's new stove; some updates

[BrotherBart]

the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.

That is why they use a standardized fuel load. Which limits the comparability of the results stove to stove efficiency wise. A trade off they made in the eighties to hold to their objective.

Tom discusses this at length.

(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/hobtucmp.htm)

 

[oldspark]

One things for sure you dont want to base your stove purchase off of the EPA numbers.

 

[BrianK]

Why not just measure the BTU's going up the stack? If you know how many BTU's are in the firebox (weight and type of wood...), and you know how many BTU's went up the chimney, then you know what is left which went into the room. That may be what they are doing now.... ? But your right and it's important to repeat, what the EPA is most interested in really is the emmisions #'s. But do keep in mind, the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.

The new firebox designs in conjunction with hybrid technology are going to wring more available heat out of the same amount of wood BTUs. To say the only indicator of BTU output is the size of the firebox is to deny that some stoves send more BTUs up the chimney than others. Everyone here knows that old fashioned open fireplaces are so inefficient as to actually cool off some houses, because so much of the heat goes up the chimney.

A masonry stove or a rocket mass heater extracts far more of the available heat from the wood than a wood stove, by making the smoke path such that the heat is absorbed by the thermal mass to be radiated off later. A wood stove extracts far more of the available heat from the wood than an old open fireplace because of convection and radiation.

These new hybrid stoves are burning higher percentages of particulates. Those particulates, unburned, equal BTUs and thus lost heat up the chimney, in older designs. The hi tech firebox design and smoke path in the new hybrids extract more heat from the combustion, making it available to heat the house. Older stoves with big fireboxes that simply send the BTUs up the chimney will not be able to compete with these new stoves that burn more of the particulates and extract more of the heat from wood combustion.

Bottom line, its no longer the case that you can simply compare firebox size to arrive at any definite conclusion about what size stove to buy. A modern hybrid with properly designed firebox to extract more heat and burn more particulates eventually will go toe to toe with older designs with larger fireboxes. We may not be there yet, but new EPA regs will eventually force that evolution on the industry.

 

[oldspark]

Fire box size is still a good baseline for your stove needs, there are only so many btus in a piece of wood so a larger firewbox with give you the extended burn times needed for colder climates. Plus where you live and size of house, damn near bought too small of stove based on the talk of how much heat the news stove put out.

 

[BrianK]

Fire box size is still a good baseline for your stove needs, there are only so many btus in a piece of wood so a larger firewbox with give you the extended burn times needed for colder climates.

Definitely.

 

[WoodPorn]

According to their website, with its 2.8 cu ft firebox,



So if the Union Hybrid firebox is even bigger, wonder how many BTUs it will crank out compared to the Progress? And I assume burn times will be as good as or better than the Progress too.

According to the diagram (cartoon) it is a 3.2 cu ft

Sorry ETA Backwoods already got it!

 

[Huntindog1]

I think the main advantage is the extended burn time getting the heat over a longer period of time. The Grams of particulates emissions is good for the atmosphere. The efficiency number is one thing some one should find out what kind of measurement that is. As in, is heat getting out in the room measurement or stack efficiency of btu's thats not getting wasted up the flue.

Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable. As I know one new designed secondary tube stove that came in at 81% efficiency. And some Cat stoves are at 82%. So clean burn over a longer period is the main advantage your paying money for here.

I wish someone would explain why dropping to .52 grams emissions doesnt increase efficiency to a higher level. As the drop seems larger than the rise in my opinion. We are assuming incinerating more of the particulates so they are not getting up the stack , equates to more heat, so if we assume that getting more heat means less particulates then there must be an increase in heat loss up the stack as we get more heat out of the wood thus that is pushing down the efficiency number from going higher. Like I said earlier we first must know what kind of measurement is being used for the efficiency number. Then it might make more sense.

As in its the difference in temperature that equates to the speed of the transfer of heat. So a more efficient hotter firebox might loose a little more heat up the stack and keep the efficiency number to 84% but 84% is really good.

 

[teutonicking]

I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.

 

[BrianK]

I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.

I like that!

 

[WoodPorn]

Woodstock Woodmiser...

 

[BrianK]

Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable. As I know one new designed secondary tube stove that came in at 81% efficiency. And some Cat stoves are at 82%. So clean burn over a longer period is the main advantage your paying money for here.

I wish someone would explain why dropping to .52 grams emissions doesnt increase efficiency to a higher level. As the drop seems larger than the rise in my opinion. We are assuming incinerating more of the particulates so they are not getting up the stack , equates to more heat, so if we assume that getting more heat means less particulates then there must be an increase in heat loss up the stack

Here's a pretty good visual comparison between a CAT stove and a hybrid stove, both from Woodstock. Since I've never had a non-CAT stove, maybe the flames generated by the Progress are typical for secondaries?

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I do get rolling flames at the top of my Fireview from a good CAT burn, but nothing compared to what is seen on this Progress.

 

[Machria]

I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.

That's awesome! OR, make it the Woodstock Hybrid Woodsaver

Woodstock, USE THIS NAME!

Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable.

Real world, that is a 2% difference! I'm good with math!

 

[BrianK]

Max Hybrid?

 

[Reckless]

Beta test info http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/08/more-info-on-beta-testing.html
Provided my info hopefully they choose me

 

[BrotherBart]

Swiss Army Stove

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I was hoping this thread could get back to the original intention. I'm surprised the mods haven't close the thread and if the bickering about different type stoves doesn't stop, I hope they do close it. If you want to debate about different stoves and their outputs, please feel free to start your own thread.

Thank You.

 

[Todd]

I wonder how much of this new technology in these new Woodstock stoves will eventually be incorporated into the older Woodstock stoves? Maybe some new mods are in order?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I honestly do not think it will be that much. More like a case of re-designing the stoves, like the Fireview and Keystone, etc to incorporate the technology.

 

[Todd]

I don't think it would be that hard to tweak the air controls or have some kind of monitoring software in the old stoves, but yeah, turning them into a hybrid may be a little more involved.

 

[BrianK]

Ok, purely conjecture here on my part, but reading between the lines and judging by the whimsical illustration on their blog,

I am assuming (hoping?) that this stove, in addition to the cook top, is also going to have retractable warming shelves built into the cook top lid, with handles to lift the cover, pull out the warming shelves and hang things on?

 

[charly]

Ok, purely conjecture here on my part, but reading between the lines and judging by the whimsical illustration on their blog,


I am assuming (hoping?) that this stove, in addition to the cook top, is also going to have retractable warming shelves built into the cook top lid, with handles to lift the cover, pull out the warming shelves and hang things on.

Like I always felt about Woodstock,,, they love to surprise everyone for the better...they're happy folks and they like to pass that on..Almost like the have a deep sense of humor with the folks who love their stoves... Just a fun company to be around and involved with,,, how cool is that? Matter of fact, who else has that following or open communication with the general public or the people who own their stoves... So nice to have such a company like this in this day and age... I hope all goes well with their new stove.. and.... what other company would let the general public have hands on, a free new stove for testing? Can't get any closer to your customers then that! Guess I'm just excited to see that their new stove is a big success.. cause they are some really good folks! If you own one of their stoves you know what I'm talking about.. OK, I'll shut up now

 

[Machria]

Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!

 

[charly]

Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!

Maybe those will be nice warming shelves for soup, etc.. That would be nice...

 

[BrianK]

Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!

I have to admit, the thought of drying venison jerky there did cross my mind.

 

[BrotherBart]

I am thinking clearance to combustibles.