new here with questions about Osburn 3300 vs 3500 and Chinook 30.2

[bholler]

If you had to buy new tubes and vermiculite vs a whole stainless baffle assembly.. 10x is probably an over estimate but I bet is greater than 5x . Thinking of prices for my F400 or new f500 assembly vs baffle and tubes for my Drolet . Again just thinking worst case.

I agree it’s going to take a lot of abuse to get to this point but.

You are also comparing jotul pricing to drolet pricing. Price out tubes and baffle for a quad. Those prices probably aren't too far off

 

[EbS-P]

You are also comparing jotul pricing to drolet pricing. Price out tubes and baffle for a quad. Those prices probably aren't too far off

Any advice on durability, tube and vermiculite vs stainless baffle for the proposed quest quarters install?

 

[BKVP]

What is this in reference to? Can you provide some specifics? Stainless tubes do not commonly go unless the stove is being pushed very hard over a long period of time. Same for stainless baffles except in some of the oldest Drolets, but their baffles were not replaceable. With normal use a PE stainless baffle may last the life of the stove. Pricewise a replacement tube can be $60-100, while a PE baffle kit was about $350 last time I checked, but that would be the equivalent of replacing all 3-4 tubes or $180-400.

They do fail at times, but most often there is also warranty coverage on many of those parts. I know one manufacturer offers outstanding warranty on the baffles they use. It may be inconvenient to change, but at least the cost of the part is covered...and in some cases the labor.

 

[begreen]

Yes, PE baffles have a limited lifetime warranty.

 

[bholler]

Any advice on durability, tube and vermiculite vs stainless baffle for the proposed quest quarters install?

Tubes are very durable I honestly have only replaced a few in my career. Vermiculite baffles are pretty durable. Fiber board not so much. Cast baffles are hit or miss some manufacturers do it very well others don't

Stainless is very durable.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

It's why I have been asking for picture of that chimney top.

Hi begreen. Did the photos give you the information you needed?

 

[begreen]

Hi begreen. Did the photos give you the information you needed?

Yes, thank you. It looks like a single 12 x 12 flue which is shared between levels. This is no longer permitted so it's good to get it remedied. Connecting the Canyon to a 6" liner should make things easier with two insulated oval liners.

 

[Poindexter]

@Bethany Waterfall , you have good advice here. I personally would, as you are already leaning, stick with non-cat stoves for the public areas so well meaning ignorant could do less damage, and look pretty hard at a catalytic combustor equipped stove for the the owner's area.

The good news is the 30.2 BK box you are looking at is a fair bit more advanced than my BK 30.0 box- but we can both run spruce-pine-fir with excellent efficiency and season green freshly felled wood in one summer. I burn spruce only up here, about 8 cords annually for 1200 sqft, really good insulation envelope compared to the lower 48 and I prefer my wife in summer outfits.

I came up with this doohickey several years ago: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/solar-cord-wood-kiln-operation.152699/

I am not overjoyed with my kilns though I continue to run them. The main problem is I have to replace the plastic membrane every 18 months or so and that is a fair bit of crude oil represented going to the landfill.

FWIW I finished my first college degree in Schenectady and have a reasonable familiarity with your mild southern climate, 😃 .

Since building my passive solar kilns, I had an opportunity for a clean sheet build and came up with these: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...rk-1-is-built-and-filled.181504/#post-2542414

To get SPF (spruce-pine-fir) dry in one summer the controlling variables are to get it split, stacked and covered on top by May first, with good airflow. Having a 1.5 inch space front and back on the middle row seems to be adequate if you have good air flow.

If you need oak or beech or live ash dry in one summer you will probably have to kiln it. Search on @Woodsplitter67 for "threads started by" here - he has had good results with eastern NA hardwoods. Astounding results really, respect is due, this is a person for you to get to know. Good job @Woodsplitter67 .

10 cords annually is a LOT. I could do it, but I would be maxed out on free time. Given what I have seen in thread, spruce pine fir with non cats in the public areas is certainly an option. SPF seasoned one summer to 16-20% MC will work very well in whatever BK box in the owners area - given reasonable insulation and air tightness; and should do well in non cats in the public areas.

My opinion, 10 cords annually is where a burner, where the cutoff is, to look at a small tractor with forks on the front end and shrink wrapped cord wood on multiple pallets to serve as multiple small kilns. At 15 cords annually, no brainer, get a tractor with forks and palletize cordwood splits with shrink wrap. At 20 cords, build a green house to hold your palletized cord wood in while it dries and you move it around with tractor forks.

@stoveliker , your situation is unique as your wood stove is not on the same floor, not at the same level, as your primary living space. Most of us are looking at heat coming off the stove to distribute, you are looking at heat coming up the stairwell to distribute. My oservation is when I run the convection deck fans my burn time is shorter, but the heat in my envelope is greater. I dont give a hoot what my flue temp is as long as my brushing out looks not dangerous. If I got khaki/ brown/ tan/ grey / sweepings with a few crunchy black speckles, I am good.

I do run a 4 way temp/ humidity sensor (Acurite brand) at my house. Two of the sensors are in my crawl space, one at the hole in the ground where I have potable in and sewer out, the other next to the dehumidifier in the same crawl space. The third sensor moves around the house as I see fit, and the home unit is on the side table next to my recliner in the (upstairs, stove level) TV/ stove room. Mine was about $60 from amazon. You have a notably strong background in both chemistry and physics. While I appreciate your guidance on flue heighth; your abilty to comment usefully to folks running stoves below their main living area is potentially unsurpassed here with minimal instrumentation.

FWIW, I get best heat distribution to the back bedrooms with my convection deck fans running at any speed other than off, and a 20 inch box fan on low in the hallway gently wafting cold air from the floors of the bedrooms towards the wood stove. Local to me above about +20dF it doesn't really matter, but below -20dF outdoor ambient fan speeds are mission critical. I am seriously looking forward to your data and findings .

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

Yes, thank you. It looks like a single 12 x 12 flue which is shared between levels. This is no longer permitted so it's good to get it remedied. Connecting the Canyon to a 6" liner should make things easier with two insulated oval liners.

Hi @begreen. Just an update. I had another stove installer here today who wasn't sure that two 6" pipe would fit. I'm not sure what to do now... Just wait until installation day on Dec. 9 and see what happens? One way or the other, I gotta fix the chimney... And on another note, I got one of the osburn 3300s installed today. I swapped out one of the Lennox 160s. It was a straight swap, one stove for another with minimal difference in the pipe. I'm on the third small burn-in of the new stove, but the back draft is pretty bad and smoke keeps filling the room, which almost never happened with the Lennox. Any thoughts? Of course I will call the stove installer tomorrow to ask.... it's demoralizing.

 

[begreen]

Two oval insulated liners will fit. It should be verified in advance that the installer is considering this as the option rather than just putting in what they prefer as the easiest.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

@Bethany Waterfall , you have good advice here. I personally would, as you are already leaning, stick with non-cat stoves for the public areas so well meaning ignorant could do less damage, and look pretty hard at a catalytic combustor equipped stove for the the owner's area.

The good news is the 30.2 BK box you are looking at is a fair bit more advanced than my BK 30.0 box- but we can both run spruce-pine-fir with excellent efficiency and season green freshly felled wood in one summer. I burn spruce only up here, about 8 cords annually for 1200 sqft, really good insulation envelope compared to the lower 48 and I prefer my wife in summer outfits.

I came up with this doohickey several years ago: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/solar-cord-wood-kiln-operation.152699/

I am not overjoyed with my kilns though I continue to run them. The main problem is I have to replace the plastic membrane every 18 months or so and that is a fair bit of crude oil represented going to the landfill.

FWIW I finished my first college degree in Schenectady and have a reasonable familiarity with your mild southern climate, 😃 .

Since building my passive solar kilns, I had an opportunity for a clean sheet build and came up with these: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...rk-1-is-built-and-filled.181504/#post-2542414

To get SPF (spruce-pine-fir) dry in one summer the controlling variables are to get it split, stacked and covered on top by May first, with good airflow. Having a 1.5 inch space front and back on the middle row seems to be adequate if you have good air flow.

If you need oak or beech or live ash dry in one summer you will probably have to kiln it. Search on @Woodsplitter67 for "threads started by" here - he has had good results with eastern NA hardwoods. Astounding results really, respect is due, this is a person for you to get to know. Good job @Woodsplitter67 .

10 cords annually is a LOT. I could do it, but I would be maxed out on free time. Given what I have seen in thread, spruce pine fir with non cats in the public areas is certainly an option. SPF seasoned one summer to 16-20% MC will work very well in whatever BK box in the owners area - given reasonable insulation and air tightness; and should do well in non cats in the public areas.

My opinion, 10 cords annually is where a burner, where the cutoff is, to look at a small tractor with forks on the front end and shrink wrapped cord wood on multiple pallets to serve as multiple small kilns. At 15 cords annually, no brainer, get a tractor with forks and palletize cordwood splits with shrink wrap. At 20 cords, build a green house to hold your palletized cord wood in while it dries and you move it around with tractor forks.

@stoveliker , your situation is unique as your wood stove is not on the same floor, not at the same level, as your primary living space. Most of us are looking at heat coming off the stove to distribute, you are looking at heat coming up the stairwell to distribute. My oservation is when I run the convection deck fans my burn time is shorter, but the heat in my envelope is greater. I dont give a hoot what my flue temp is as long as my brushing out looks not dangerous. If I got khaki/ brown/ tan/ grey / sweepings with a few crunchy black speckles, I am good.

I do run a 4 way temp/ humidity sensor (Acurite brand) at my house. Two of the sensors are in my crawl space, one at the hole in the ground where I have potable in and sewer out, the other next to the dehumidifier in the same crawl space. The third sensor moves around the house as I see fit, and the home unit is on the side table next to my recliner in the (upstairs, stove level) TV/ stove room. Mine was about $60 from amazon. You have a notably strong background in both chemistry and physics. While I appreciate your guidance on flue heighth; your abilty to comment usefully to folks running stoves below their main living area is potentially unsurpassed here with minimal instrumentation.

FWIW, I get best heat distribution to the back bedrooms with my convection deck fans running at any speed other than off, and a 20 inch box fan on low in the hallway gently wafting cold air from the floors of the bedrooms towards the wood stove. Local to me above about +20dF it doesn't really matter, but below -20dF outdoor ambient fan speeds are mission critical. I am seriously looking forward to your data and findings .

Thanks for your reply and all the info @Poindexter . I appreciate your appreciation of how much work 10 cords of wood is. Yes. Running so many stoves definitely is a big job. Fortunately (and hopefully) this year it will be less, as I will be able shut down one side of the house this winter and keep my footprint more contained. (aside from a couple of gatherings being planned when I will have to fire up the whole house).

I took a look at your threads and solar kilns. Awesome. But yes. replacing plastic and adding to landfill is problematic in my own internal moral and enviro-activist universe. But f I am continue to burn this much wood i will look at tractors and alternate systems of wood delivery and moving. As well as using the shrink wrap pallets as small kilns -- SUCH a helpful idea. I'll see how I do this year.

I actually didn't know that I could burn soft woods in these stoves. I was always told that I could only burn hardwood. This seems to be wrongheaded information... (hand slapping face emoji)

Yes, there is a lot of great info in this thread. I am just using 2 ecofans on the stove... they seem to help move air around. I can't really use any other fans because there is too much hum and vibration that drives me nuts. Even those tiny fans that sit in the corner of the door are too noisy for me. I installed one today to try it and immediately shut it off. I am a musician, so incredibly acoustically sensitive to hums.

For this year, I have accepted the sad truth that my wood is nowhere near dry enough to run a catalytic stove. I urgently needed a bigger main stove with solid overnight burns, so I put the new Osburn 3300 -- installed today -- in my 450 sf downstairs living room just off the 450sf kitchen. Outside the snow has started to fall, and I am on my third small fire "first burn". There are 3 bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs. (900sf). I definitely need to pull the heat upstairs more efficiently. Looking to install a ceiling fan at the top of the stairs instead of using noisy motorized fans to move air.

Thanks so much for your reply and help. Wishing you well from the mild south of upstate NY

 

[SpaceBus]

The back drafting and smoke could be related to your wood supply. Our first winter here in Maine was not easy because our seasoned wood supply was tiny and we exhausted it much faster than we realized. The solution for us was a pallet of compressed sawdust bricks called Bio Bricks. There are other brands and shapes, I would suggest North Idaho Energy Logs if you can get them where you live. These products contain almost no moisture, so you can add them to marginally dry firewood and have a hot clean burn. The bricks/logs aren't as good as cordwood with less than 20% moisture, but they are better than fossil fuel or electric heat. I suspect you will cut down your firewood usage by three cords/30% if all of your stoves are high efficiency and you have plenty of truly seasoned wood.

 

[Poindexter]

. I definitely need to pull the heat upstairs more efficiently. Looking to install a ceiling fan at the top of the stairs instead of using noisy motorized fans to move air.

Thanks so much for your reply and help. Wishing you well from the mild south of upstate NY

user here @stoveliker has some experience pulling heat up his stairwell and may chime in.

 

[SpaceBus]

I think a ceiling fan directly in front of your basement stairwell door will go a long ways if it is blowing upwards, but I don't have any first hand experience.

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

The back drafting and smoke could be related to your wood supply. Our first winter here in Maine was not easy because our seasoned wood supply was tiny and we exhausted it much faster than we realized. The solution for us was a pallet of compressed sawdust bricks called Bio Bricks. There are other brands and shapes, I would suggest North Idaho Energy Logs if you can get them where you live. These products contain almost no moisture, so you can add them to marginally dry firewood and have a hot clean burn. The bricks/logs aren't as good as cordwood with less than 20% moisture, but they are better than fossil fuel or electric heat. I suspect you will cut down your firewood usage by three cords/30% if all of your stoves are high efficiency and you have plenty of truly seasoned wood.

Yep. It's true. The wood is wet. But it was also wet in my Lennox 160 and there was no issue with smoke and backdrafting. i called the dealer and he told me that new stoves are made much more tightly for EPA standards and are more prone to backdrafting. not sure if this will continue to be an issue as it gets colder or as my wood gets drier. It's an unanticipated drag. Last year I had good dry wood for most of winter (except towards the end when I had to burn green ash). But I am hoping that the more efficient stoves burn significantly less wood overall. I have heard of bio bricks (from the local Tulikivi stove dealer). I have been re-thinking my strategies and considering ordering several pallets and trying to get a catalytic going this year . I am getting roasted out of my living room with this Osburn 3300. I didn't realize that a long low burn doesn't really exist with this stove. I guess I can spend the winter with all the doors open to the other side of the house and try to keep cool drafts circulating through the living room. sigh. I think I made a mistake . ... well. If I did I am hoping that the Osburn can eventually go to the dance hall downstairs. It would be pretty perfect it there. but for now, it continues to be a bit of a demoralizing and time consuming conundrum. But I am keeping the faith -- and the boss of the stove dealership said he would pay me a visit on Thursday and give me some in situ advice (and the boss' opinion on getting two liners into that chimney).

 

[Bethany Waterfall]

I think a ceiling fan directly in front of your basement stairwell door will go a long ways if it is blowing upwards, but I don't have any first hand experience.

The basement door is in the kitchen and it stays closed The stove is in the living room next to the kitchen and there's no door to the stairwell and bedrooms upstairs. Just gotta get the heat up the very narrow victorian back stairs. Hoping that a ceiling fan at the top of the stairs will be the ticket. But with the huge roaster downstairs now, the upstairs is pleasantly cool in it's current drafty state. I am tightening the insulation envelope this year, so it may end up all being sweltering. This year is a heating adventure it seems... Thinking hard about that catalytic and the biobricks...

 

[SpaceBus]

You will get used to burning different sized loads depending on the weather. Wood species also makes a big difference in heat output. The newer stoves, especially EPA 2020 stoves, really need super dry wood, like less than 20% moisture content. I misunderstood and thought you were heating from the basement! The bio bricks are absolutely worth it if your wood supply is marginal, and you can mix them with the marginal wood as well. The bricks don't do that great on their own, but I don't have a cat stove. Fixing up your insulation will go a long ways to helping your upstairs heat.

Even my wood burning cookstove with under-fire air feed likes to reverse draft if the wood isn't quite dry enough. Sometimes I have to burn quite a bit of super dry kindling to get the draft established. The bottom fed air allows me to get by with less dry wood, but at the expense of overall heating output.

 

[BKVP]

Mix the processed fuel (logs/bricks) with your driest cordwood. Alaska paid for a study and the blending of the two types of fuels was cleaner burning that either being burned by itself.

 

[SpaceBus]

Mix the processed fuel (logs/bricks) with your driest cordwood. Alaska paid for a study and the blending of the two types of fuels was cleaner burning that either being burned by itself.

That's amazing! I liked burning the bio bricks mixed with our marginal cordwood, but the brick shape doesn't seem to work well on its own. Maybe the log shaped ones do better?

 

[Rickb]

Really? I found the brick shapes worked really well for me in my stove.

I would use cord to get it started then once up to temp before I turned it down and flipped the bypass closed throw in a couple blocks.

 

[SpaceBus]

Really? I found the brick shapes worked really well for me in my stove.

I would use cord to get it started then once up to temp before I turned it down and flipped the bypass closed throw in a couple blocks.

It could be stove shape, ours is long and narrow. They might work better in my cookstove firebox.